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ronin1
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Posted: Friday December 22nd, 2006 05:31 am |
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To Learn or not to Learn… That is the Question…
Gentlemen,
So you’re thinking about a Russian wife? Perhaps better yet, you have your heart set on having a pair of Russian arms around you the rest of your life. One has to be seriously motivated to do this. Even to get to this realization is a big first step. Well, it’s really a huge leap to even see the first rung in the first place. Congratulations. Most don’t make it this far.
Now as monumental as it was to have gotten this far, there is a lot more involved if one wants to get it right the first time. You maybe ‘ready, willing and able’ but to be in a position to pull the brass ring, one has to do some work to get their rear hide planted on the right horse. I’m talking about the minimum requirements to be successful in a attracting and holding a RW relationship. This will vary from WM to WM and from what type of RW he is expecting to pair with.
For some, it will not matter and they will pull all the stops in their efforts to appeal to RW. Some are driven by the, “you get what you put into it” mentality. Others are hopeless romantics. Regardless of the reasons, one of the next biggest issues that are on the minds of WM is how they are going to handle the language barrier. Some of the most resolute RW admirers will back slide on this issue once they begin to understand how far reaching this is.
The problem of language is a problem of capacity and time. This is especially true with AM through America’s past history of being predominantly a single language country. It is well known that if an individual is not seriously exposed to the challenges of a second language before the age of 12, he will not be availed the maximum learning speed that he is capable of at a later time. This is the barrier that many AM face. Still, it is not insurmountable… it just takes a lottt lonnnger. For other WM that have had the opportunity to learn a second language, the problems maybe more in rewiring their 2-way language switch into a 3-way switch.
Who needs to embark on learning the Russian language? This is a personal decision, though I think that all should make an attempt. There are many benefits. Language is at the heart of every culture and in learning it, one will glean the way a society thinks and processes information. This always leads to a better understanding and mutual respect toward each other. Or I can just say that you will have a lot less fights over mis-communications.
Does the average Joe with average expectations need to learn Russian? Perhaps not, however, in my travels I have met very few average Joes with average expectations. Quite the contrary. Many WM have rather high expectations of the RW they intend to meet, let alone marry. Typically, the level of expectations is at least greater than the amount of efforts and resources that one has to expend (if one can equate such things). It stands to reason that WM will be expecting much from a RW when they have to go half way around the world to find her.
According to the “Ronin Handbook’ (A handbook that is yet to be written) there are 5 distinct levels of Russian language profiency for WM . They are as follows:
Level 1 - Tourist level (Knows just enough to butcher a handful of words & phrases.)
Level 2 – Novice level (Knows how to butcher more than level 1.)
Level 3 – Intermediate (Approaches being functional without offending most RW.)
Level 4 – Advanced (Can pass as actually speaking Russian.)
Level 5 – Expert (No WM make it in this category unless they were born Russian)
If one can accept this, one can expect that becoming an expert is not a reason to learn Russian. A reasonable expectation is to reach level #3 and be functional in the language. Being functional may enhance your ability to attract a better class of RW. It will get you kudos from your RW and her Russian GFs, even though they may not like that they have to watch what they say around you. You may even be able to glean important info on your RW by what may slip from those GFs.
Typically, from the time a WM gets the idea of a Rwife to the time they meet their future fiancée, it will be less than one year. There are few WM in there 40s that can become a level 3 in that time. So is it really worth trying? Certainly not to impress her.
In Russia, interpreters are a dime a dozen. Granted, they are uncomfortable to use at first, however WM soon adapt to them. Sure, they may have their own agendas, however what are the alternatives. Perhaps they are a necessary evil, but overall they get the job done.
Once your RW arrives on your home soil the emphasis will be for her to learn your native language as fast as possible. Her introduction into your family will create an added strain on your time and energies. The natural tendency would to delay or postpone those activities that are less immediate… like Russian lessons for the WM.
Overall, IMO, learning Russian contributes little in the early phases of the RW endeavor. It’s a matter of learning too little too late. Perhaps one should be more concerned with the RW’s ability to learn another language.
I’m not advocating that one shouldn’t learn the language… far from it. The slow process of learning Russian is important to show your respect for your RW’s heritage… and her. Also, the understand of the language will allow your RW to give you insights into her world that only can be given within her native tongue. This sharing will help create the unbreakable bond that is so often spoken of in WM/RW marriages. I will hazard to guess that there are few if any WM/RW marriages that are in serious trouble where the WM takes an active interest in the Russian language.
Copydude Blog: Do I Need to speak Russian to Date a RW? (Tongue in cheek)
Ronin
Last edited on Monday January 1st, 2007 10:48 am by ronin1
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Russophile
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Posted: Saturday March 24th, 2007 09:12 am |
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Learning to speak Russian is not a requirement to marry a Russian. However, it could make things much easier for your relationship. Although much communication is non-verbal, a great deal of culture can be learned by speaking a language. There are also in-laws that you need to communicate with and what if you have children? Plus, think of all the potential translation fees that you could save -- my wife makes good money translating for those soon to be married and those soon to be divorced. 
What you have called expert, I would typically call native fluency. The reason it is not an achievable goal is that it requires the knowledge of a life time. Foreign fluency (approx 4.5 on your scale) is possible, but requires an incredible amount of work and time. Don't even worry about those stages, you can learn a great deal, impress many people, and improve your relationship by simply reaching a 3 (Intermediate) which is possible for most people.
By the way, your reference to "the copy dude" is not a very good one even though you do note that it is "tongue in cheek". The guys whole site about Russian women seems to be a complete joke if not intentionally rude or misleading. Take this post: http://www.thecopydude.com/?page_id=96
In Russian folklore, the name ‘Olga’ is sacred because it was the name of the very first, Russian Mail Order Bride: Princess Olga of Kiev, who ruled Russia (then Kievan Rus) for 27 years, beginning in the year 945.
Or this post: http://www.thecopydude.com/?page_id=101
What Is The Best Present You Can Give A Russian Women? ... I usually take a large bunch of plastic flowers.
If you take plastic flowers to a Russian woman, well, you will soon find yourself taking plastic flowers to another Russian woman because that first relationship is not going to work out.
- Russophile
Last edited on Saturday March 24th, 2007 09:13 am by Russophile
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ronin1
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Posted: Saturday March 24th, 2007 06:05 pm |
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Russophile,
First off, welcome to the RWPrimer!
Yes, copydude would not be the best 'first exposure' for those that are looking or RW info, however this particular article has perhaps the most truth and is the least offensive in the overall message that it gets across 'that language is not everything' in a WM/RW relationship. Regardless, I have noted the site correctly.
If there are any links that are more apropo then please please feel free to bring them to light.
Ronin
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Posted: Sunday March 25th, 2007 09:03 pm |
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Thanks for the welcome.
I was afraid that a Russia newbie might follow some of that advice -- like the plastic flowers. However, that is unlikely since I don't ever even remember seeing plastic flowers for sale in Russia. Although, I never did shop for them either. As a humorous example that is a decent site.
Many of the information that I have read actually say the opposite of the copy dude -- verbal communication is key in any marriage. The person who is speaking in their native language can easily dominate the conversation, so it takes some real communication skill by both people in an international marriage. That does not mean that a couple cannot make a marriage work without great language skills. However, that couple will need an extra dose of understanding, patience, and a strong desire to make the relationship work.
Not speaking a common language would certainly not make a couple unique. When my wife recieved her fiancee visa, she was one off 20 people in the room waiting for the same kind of visa. Not surprisingly they visa department was running behind, so they all started talking about how long they had been waiting for the visa etc. Only two of the 20 spoke reasonable English. Only 1 of the 20 fiancess spoke Russian (me). 18 of the 20 had no common language to communicate in. Of course, tha is a small sample, but I would love to know how many of the 20 are still together.
I did a quick search of Amazon to see what books are available now since I have not looked for several years. This book Intercultural Marriage is supposed to be good, but I have not read it. The ones that are Russia specific seem to be written by people with very little real information beyond personal experience, and are just trying to earn a quick buck. Take the example of this one based on one couple's two year experience. It takes nearly two years to fully adjust to a new country, so that is hardly enough hindsight to write a book abou a successful intercultural marriage. And the book Wedded Strangers was out of date when I read it in 1999. Although I like to read on various topics, I never read up much in this area since I speak Russian and lived there, plus I had general cross-cultural training.
- Russophile
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ronin1
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 04:27 am |
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Russophile,
Your quote:
Many of the information that I have read actually say the opposite of the copy dude -- verbal communication is key in any marriage.
Indeed, all things being equal, this is true and I fully agree with the value of verbal communication (i.e. common language). However, as you have also pointed out, many to most WM do not possess this skill or talent going into the Russian bride endeavor. Most can't learn a significant degree of the language before meeting their fiancee. It is not my intention to tell a newbie that all is lost... because their Russian language skills are wanting. To the contrary, I'm saying that despite a lack of knowing the Russian language, many WM have done well in securing a successful marriage with a RW.
Your quote:
Of course, tha is a small sample, but I would love to know how many of the 20 are still together.
You posed the question and here is an answer. Of the marriages (15) that I'm personally familiar with where the husbands are non-Russian speaking, there was only 1 failure after 5 years of marriage. Of course this is not a statistically significant sample, however it does weigh nearly as much as your visa waiting room example.
It is easy to imagine that a Russian speaking WM would have better odds in a marriage to a RW... but the wonder of wonders, without the initial common language, success seems to be very high. What is it that makes these marriages so successful despite the obvious communication shortcomings? The answer is complex and perhaps deserves several threads of its own.
RoninLast edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 04:45 am by ronin1
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Russophile
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Posted: Monday March 26th, 2007 05:54 am |
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Most people don't have the opportunity to live there for two years like I did, so I am an unfair comparison. However, speaking Russian has been a blessing and a curse. For example, I know all the gossip on all the husbands because I am am often the only man at a party who speaks Russian -- I don't want to know some of that stuff. 
I totally agree that not all is lost if the guy does not speak Russian. Honestly, it is not required to speak a darn word of it. But I would still recommend learning some Russian. It is a fascinating language and worth the effort. Russian ladies generally like to have the man take care of such things as the taxi cab, ordering at the restaurant, etc. These are some very simple things that most people can learn which would impress your potential wife. Plus, it shows interest and respect for her culture.
I would recommend that a guy find a lady who speaks reasonable English. She does not need to speak it fantastically because she will improve amazingly once back in the fellow's country. If she gets a job outside the home, she will improve even quicker. It just really surprised me (and my wife) that of the group getting their visas that day, 18 of 20 couples were going to have no language to communicate in. I am sure that the lady would pick up some language before long, but that could be a bumpy road in the mean time.
Of the WM/RW couples that I know, I only know of four where the man speaks Russian with any proficiency. They are all still together. (Too small of a sample to be worth anything scientific.) Of all the other WM/RW couples that I am aware of, a significant majority are still together. A far higher percentage are together (regardless of how the couple met) than my friends who married an American woman.
Anyway, if anyone here has any cultural or language questions that they would like to ask me, I will try to be of assistance. (You might want to send me a PM because I won't read the threads with any dedication since I am not seeking a spouse.) Although, Ronin, it really looks your posts in the Cultural Differences area were spot on. I enjoyed reading some of them, so you seem to be a good resource too.
Also, if anyone needs translation assistance, my wife and I do Russian-English translations for very reasonable rates. We like to do the translations together because having a native speaker in both languages improves the quality IMO, plus it is a fun activity for two people who enjoy languages. She also does interpretation over the phone.
Last edited on Monday March 26th, 2007 05:58 am by Russophile
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